From the DOD to the Boardroom: Jonathan Maddock on Systems, Founders, and Scaling Smart

Perry: Okay. So Jonathan, welcome. It's great to have you on ground control. And ⁓ we're really excited to to talk to you today. so know, just right off the bat, you know, I'd love to ⁓ to in a little bit into your background, right? So I think you've got this an incredibly ⁓ different a lot of folks, ⁓ multiple different degrees, a lot of time in service of our government. Jonathan Maddock: Thank you. Perry: Y you wanna just ⁓ share a couple of quick bits about about what form do you as a person? Jonathan Maddock: yeah, I mean I'm very academic focused, very ⁓ I'm an engineer at heart. grew up being an engineer ⁓ and morphed into more program management. And as grew up through the program management realm, that's when I started my own company. And kind of grew through the founder and entrepreneur side, and during COVID decided, you what, I needed to expand my horizons. And that's when I decided to go back get and back to school, get my law degree, kind of expand the ⁓ the breadth of my portfolio. Perry: It's really it's a it's a really unique background, I think. And then thirty years inside of the DOD. Do I have that about right? Jonathan Maddock: Yeah, that's pretty pretty close. Just just coming up to thirty years, yep. Perry: Wow, really amazing. then a lot of what you were doing really kind of went into thinking about how systems work and to drive ⁓ efficiency and and a lot of opportunity for gains, it seems like. Jonathan Maddock: Yeah. Systems is what I breathe. It's what I I live in. I feel like everything is tied to a system, everything from how organizations work to how your own body works. Perry: You know, it's it's it's funny because I think s some people ⁓ I went to law school also, but I have I have no capabilities from an engineering perspective, right? And I'll I'll sit on an airplane and and look at at the the inefficiencies in the design of the airplane, right? But I think for you, you're you you were approaching much, much more complex systems, right? And thinking about ⁓ you know, system design and then and then applying a way to understand I think maybe from the legal background, like the way things should be, or how do how do we carry out things in a way that that follows certain sorts of parameters, regulations or laws? Is that is that some of what ended up being the case for you? Jonathan Maddock: Yeah, the the the legal side the legal side definitely brings in more of the boundaries on what you can and can't do, to kind of understand how you color within the lines. Perry: Mm-hmm. So you worked across military leadership, right? You worked with government officials, you've, you know, worked with commercial executives with a lot of your recent work since you've you've come out, you've been, you know, working with a lot of different folks, CEOs, leaders helping to to help improve companies. you know, if you're if you're I'm thinking about it, like what a diverse group of folks, right? ⁓ what's what's the one thing that you'd say, you know, you know kind of comes to mind. ⁓ when you think about what's what's universally true across all of those different diverse people that you've had experience with. Jonathan Maddock: The the similarities that overlap are just the complexity of every organization, the the complexity of how they work. there's no such thing as a simple simple simple system when you're working across ⁓ those dynamics and how you're interacting with them. It's really the differences that make it that really draw them apart. ⁓ probably the biggest difference ⁓ is priorities. Perry: Okay. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: ⁓ when you're working with those three, because it's not like I worked with those three in a vacuum. I worked with all three integrated at the same table trying to work through. And so when you have those three entities that ⁓ have completely different and often competing priorities, and you're trying to come up with a common mission and a common focus moving forward, you have to ⁓ You can't change their priorities, but you have to respect their priorities and kind of navigate within those bounds. And so you've got the military side, for example, their priority is all about operational capability, trying to get the most operational capability out of the system you're trying to design and procure. The government's all about the bureaucratic protocols and ⁓ and making sure you stay within the acquisition rules and how you get there. And the commercial side's all about the PL. ⁓ Perry: Is it? Jonathan Maddock: trying to feel the requirement for the least amount of cost so that they can maximize their profits. all are valid, all three make sense, and trying navigate within those, that's where the challenge becomes. Perry: Yeah. Interesting. I was gonna ask you what's the one thing that they don't ever agree on, but it sounds like more often than not, right, you know, the job was helping unite them around the thing that they did agree on. Jonathan Maddock: Yep. And that's kind of where I found myself in a very unique place as that liaison, that facilitator or or mediator between the three parties. ⁓ while I worked on the government side and worked for the government, I worked as an honest broker to kind of work through those three parameters and kind of get them aligned and moving forward from system definition through system fielding. Perry: Mm-hmm. It's lot of work. Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: It's lot of fun too. It's a lot of fun. You get to work with a lot of very intelligent people it's the the more challenging, the more fun it is. That that's the engineer in me. Perry: the engineering yeah so it's interesting to me you're you're you're an author in addition to having had this you know pretty fantastic career and and you know having mastered both engineering and and the law but the title of your book right I mean that's a that's a gut punch suffocated by success like wow I mean it it's a you know just three little words right but it says so much you know Tell me like just at the highest level, where you know was it that drove you to write the book? What was it that had you, you know, ⁓ to title it with something that ⁓ so so a strong point about about some of the the challenges that that people end up experiencing? Jonathan Maddock: Yeah, and then that's really two different questions because the title didn't come till much later when I really kind of looked into what it all came down to. ⁓ you know, what why I wrote the book. Really it was ⁓ I just had so many thoughts about system that I just needed to get out of my head. Wanted to put down on paper and my idea of you know the the Perry: Mm, okay. Okay. Jonathan Maddock: Madoc Matrix and the Forti the Fortivian Coherence construct, kind of getting that down and navigating through it so that I can get in the hands of leaders who need it and who, you know, who who want to hear it. I wrote the book and I realized, you know, I I start by talking about fire and the the pride in building the fire and how so much fire as you're building campfires or bonfires. how they get suffocated out because you're trying to build them higher, build them more, and they're suffocating on on its itself. And so the more I thought about it and look back to my career, there's so many examples in my own career, ⁓ both in navigating through the government sector, but also on my own entrepreneur side, where I constantly felt like I was being suffocated by my own success. And so just that feeling of Perry: Isn't it? Jonathan Maddock: suffocation and the f the idea of a fire being suffocated out kind of brought the two together. Perry: It's it's such an interesting concept. I think I think ⁓ you know, it's interesting you bring up the point about being an entrepreneur yourself and then you're working with entrepreneurs, right? And one of the things you're doing is you're you're helping them to detect early signs of changes in their business that are leading more towards fragility than they are towards the strength and capability to, you know, be successful and continue on. you know, first like how how do you you know, like ⁓ us a little bit more about how you you know, recommend that people detect those types of signs and and ⁓ you know, and then just a little bit about like the work that you as an entrepreneur are doing with other entrepreneurs and founders to help them with their businesses. Jonathan Maddock: It's really helping them to just see their system because there's a lot of talk about seeing your system. And you know, systems are becoming a very common buzzword out there. If you look at the LinkedIn feeds, there's a lot of about systems and a lot about seeing the system. But seeing the system and understanding your system are two different things. And I I feel like it's people ⁓ Perry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: speak you know talk about the difference between hearing and understanding you know or hearing and listening are two different things you know seeing and understanding what you're actually seeing are two different things and so I like to help help leaders understand how their system works how the dependencies work biggest thing I draw are the three pillars the people process and technology pillars ⁓ any system Perry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: And I like to really help founders understand the dependencies between those three pillars. There are some independence them, but there's a lot more dependencies than there are independence. And understanding how increasing one or fragility in one affects the other two pillars. And ultimately, you want the flat tabletop up on top. to stay flat and when you have the three legs of the the table, if one increases more than the others or one falters, you're gonna have a lopsided table. Perry: Not what we want when we're setting up our businesses, right? It's ⁓ critical stages that that folks are going through in the early parts. How often do you end up finding that that you know entrepreneurs and founders in the early stages just aren't even deploying systems at all versus ineffective ones? Jonathan Maddock: The the problem I see is a lot of a lot of entrepreneurs start as solopreneurs, right? And they they kind of start with their own. So the people pillar isn't really there. It's the they are the people pillar. so it's you're looking at just processes and technology, and specifically most entrepreneurs are looking at their technology. Perry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: The system's not as complex. Once you put that people place in the the people pillar at that point is really more just who you're trying, who your customers are and who your customer base are. But once you start growing the business and you start having people as part of those processes and technology, you now start overcomplexing your system. And you don't you don't factor that in when you start because the people pillar is not really there. Perry: Interesting. So the so so tell me more. So y you start making your systems overly complex, right? And and that complexity ends up, I guess, building in weakness at the same time. Jonathan Maddock: Yeah. Well, you start for ex for example, you start putting adding technology to and AI is a good example, right? You're introducing AI into your organization, but you're not looking at the process side of how to use AI or what AI can do for you. And you're not looking at the people side as far as the training, the maturity, and even the acceptance and comfort level with using AI. Perry: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: And so if you're not looking at those processes and the people side of it, then introducing AI is going to create this unbalance in how it uses and what it's doing for you. Perry: It it's interesting you bring that up because there's so many things that that we use AI for today that when we look more closely we see that it can look really good on the surface, right? ⁓ but when you get into the details, you start finding that there are there are cracks in the accuracy of the information. ⁓ there are potentially problems where the prompt that you wrote wasn't good enough. And so it wrote something that looks really good, but it didn't really answer the actual question because you didn't do a good job writing it clearly. Yeah, e e even if it's a an anonymized example, like do you have any examples of companies that you've worked with that are you know, they look they look like they're completely healthy from the outside, right? But at the end of the day, ⁓ they're they're they're going through significant issues. Jonathan Maddock: Yeah, and and I guess there's no better place to look than in my own backyard. where I to how both my company ⁓ and the government team was built and structured. I was of you know the ⁓ the the bad bedrock foundation of both those and built building both those and there were a lot of fragility looking back that Perry: Okay. Jonathan Maddock: Putting certain systems in place sooner would have made ⁓ pains less as we grew. And so really looking at myself and looking at how we navigated that growth, having to go back and put systems in after the created a lot more. Perry: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: lot more pain and ⁓ made it a lot harder than it had to be had we kind of done the hard work up front. Perry: Interesting. So kind of take us into the part that that comes up, I think, inside of of your work, right? So the the language you use specifically, and I think it's to address some of these challenges. So ⁓ tell me if I'm getting it right. So innovative intelligence, ⁓ operations, protective protocols. again, like I think a a lot packed in all in one place. ⁓ if you're ⁓ translating that into plain English, right? Not just the framework, but what does it actually mean, you know, when you're when you're having somebody who's running a company day to day start applying those principles? Jonathan Maddock: It's really comes down to work smarter, not harder. You know, using using, you know, thinking both inside the box and outside the box. We talk a lot about thinking out of the box. And a lot of people start thinking, I gotta look outside the box. Well, there's also solutions inside the box. And so looking inside the box and outside the box for how to do things instead of working harder, take a step back. Perry: ⁓ okay. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: Think about what your what tools you have available, what processes you have available, and work smarter, not harder. And the protective protocols just come down to what you have protecting, protecting it. I use the fire analogy a lot. I start my book with talking about the fire analogy. And your protective protocols is the hearth around the fire. ⁓ It's prevents the fire from becoming a wildfire. You know, you want to have Fire in your fireplace, well your gov your protective protocols is your fireplace itself. You want to have a backyard barbecue with a fire out there, you have a hearth, whether it's a handmade, you know, made hearth or a prefab one you buy from Home Depot. You know, and if you want to go ahead and for the really ambitious who want a bonfire out there, well, you gotta make sure that you have that you're building it in such a way that you're not Perry: Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha. Jonathan Maddock: risk of it growing into a wildfire. So that's where the protective protocols come in place is making sure you're building your fire so that it's sustainable to the size you want that fire. Perry: Mm-hmm. ⁓ it's interesting bringing in the analogy again of the fire, right? Because it's such a powerful tool, right? But then you do have to think about the ways that you're containing and harnessing it, how you're deploying it. ⁓ I think the analogy is a a really great one. you start engaging with people for the first time, you know, I'm assuming you're doing a discovery call, you're you know ⁓ information about about what's currently going on in their business and and where they're experiencing challenges. I've personally been guilty of this and I've talked to a lot of founders that have shared the same thing where they you know ultimately there's stages ⁓ in in the of their business where we have lot of perceptions about how things are, right, and how things are working, but they don't necessarily line up with what our team members would say. ⁓ or what reality is. So you're having to surface that pretty early on. What what's the technique that you take on that side to to to really start helping founders to see that they do need your assistance, that they do have places where things may not be quite lined up and as optimal as they'd like it to be? Jonathan Maddock: A a lot of founders and you know, we have to deal with the the pride factor with founders, right? The founders who they their their their their businesses are their babies. And so they're they're so protective ⁓ how it works ⁓ what's going in it, what's coming out of it. And so they truly feel like their reputation is at stake. Perry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: And they over control what is happening in the business because they don't want to they they want to hold on to their the control of their own reputation and not put it in the hands of other people. And so the hardest part with founders is convincing them to step back. and probably the the biggest tool that I work with in helping founders is not just step back, step back and listen. Perry: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: You know, if there's a problem, you don't have to speak right away, you don't have to jump in right away. Step back and be patient and and listen to how work flows through the business, how decisions are made when you're not part of that decision cycle. that listening piece, you know, don't just don't just hear, ⁓ listen to how stuff is working within your business. Perry: Mm, okay. ⁓ probably one of the ⁓ results of starting things from ⁓ right? And being the only person who's responsible for carrying out activities to to getting to the point of feeling like if you're not there, ⁓ know, things can't get done. You're indispensable in some way or other. but the point of of hiring additional team members and growing your business is ⁓ is being able to bring in people who ideally are better than you at those things. ⁓ and most certainly it's it's to have it to where you've got more people that can focus on these other areas because ⁓ know, there's only so much time in the day for any one person. you mentioned that ego ends up ⁓ being part of it. Do you have to deflate founders' egos to get them into a place where you can start helping them? Or do you find that that most of the time they've already run into enough challenges? that they they're they're already at that point where they recognize they they can't do everything and they need to start letting go and they just need somebody to coach them through that process. Jonathan Maddock: It's it's a mix. and the the problem with ego is no one likes to admit they have an ego. And so if you come in and start pointing the about the ego, you're gonna start losing rapport right away. And so it's really trying to navigate through it with without giving it a name. but just and that's where just step back and listen, step back and watch and observe and Perry: Mm. ⁓ yeah. Jonathan Maddock: s understand what you're what you're seeing and it's it's the a consistent process in that piece of stepping back and listening. Perry: Yeah. So if you had one piece of advice that you had to give founders in particular or people running companies or managers that are of the personality type that they tend to kind of grab on to too much all at once, what's the you know, I think it was a great way before you said like like work easier, not you know, harder and and then there's a part like what's the one thing that you you you find is is a good technique to to break people away from that That ego of I have to be involved in this for it to work. Jonathan Maddock: Well, a lot of it is relating to the founders themselves, right? They they started as entrepreneurs. They started as ⁓ they they had a solution to a problem and they enjoy that that that rush of that ambition of having a solution to a problem. if you're stuck in the business ⁓ controlling the day-to-day operations, you're ⁓ Perry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: Siphoning, you're suffocating that own ambition within yourself of wanting to go find solutions for more problems because you're too busy running the business of solving yesterday's problem using yesterday's solution, and you're not allowing your ambition to drive the solutions for tomorrow's challenges. And so Perry: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: actually showing how stepping back and allowing your team to run the business actually frees you up to allow you to do what your what your heart desires, which is solving more problems, solving tomorrow's problems with tomorrow's solutions. Perry: Yeah, it's it's a it's it's ⁓ important thing I think to actually have that time available 'cause sometimes it's the problems that we want to solve and sometimes it's having the time available to solve the problems that ⁓ didn't really invite. We didn't want to have show up, but they they do continuously show up at our door. Jonathan Maddock: And as a founder myself, I know that you it's idealistic to think, hey, I can just pass off the running the company and give these, you know, if if you're if a major defense contractor, then yeah, if you're up in the C suite level, there's a lot of people doing a lot of things for you. I I get it. You know, but when you're in an entrepreneur in a small to medium business and like I am, I know you can't get away from running the day-to-day stuff. Perry: Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: But the more systems you have in place, the more the system works for you, whether it's the people that are working for you, whether it's the process that are working for you or the technology, but the way that all three work together frees you up to allow you to have that more mental space to really push what you really want to do with your business. Perry: Yeah. So let's take it the realm of of that where you wanna take things and process and and then, ⁓ know, again, like I just go in a little bit deeper on on the now you became an attorney, right? So you've got engineering systems and you've got legal systems and ⁓ you know, at the at the end of the day, ⁓ you know, would you say that you find that those are are systems that that ⁓ pair well together ⁓ are ones that you know, have such different approaches that it's it's ⁓ it can be difficult to reconcile how to take of the processes and and put them into play. Jonathan Maddock: Well there's there's a lot of similarities, a lot of overlap. Systems are systems and they they systems are where you have all the different components working together for a common purpose. and whether it's a legal system that's ⁓ a set of laws and regulations that are trying to ultimately I mean if you look at the the Perry: Okay. Jonathan Maddock: codes of the US government, right? They're they're different codes, they all have a common purpose and they're all built and structured in a flow down way. Perry: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: So to kind of understand and recognize those as systems definitely it it gave me a def a leg up in going through law school having the engineering and systems focus where I was able the the way I talk about engineering, it's simple. Engineering's nothing more than breaking components down into smaller pieces that you know how to solve or know how that you can figure out how to solve it and then building it back up. And so the law's the same way. Perry: Okay. Jonathan Maddock: Right. If if you're gonna find liability with negligence, it's duty breach and causation. And you just have to solve for those three elements. And yes, though each of those elements have sub-elements and sub-elements and sub-elements, which makes law school so challenging. But the more you break it down into complex equations and you solve those equations, it rolls itself back up. Perry: Mm. Yes. You know, it's it's it's interesting 'cause you know, you're talking about about how law approaches you know identifying in inside of it there's a regulation. We have to think about okay, compliance with it, there's ⁓ impact injury to another party party and how do we identify, you know, ⁓ what requirement was and whether it was met and whether causation has is is ⁓ actually basis for you know the claim. A lot of our listeners are in regulated spaces, right? Financial services, healthcare, life sciences, insurance. all heavily regulated, right? And and ⁓ things and getting things right is something that's very important to them. ⁓ the challenge that they I hear a lot of them say is that they they find that you know, two things. One, ⁓ they oftentimes find that there are folks that aren't valuing ⁓ you know, how ⁓ they their ⁓ to match up and marry up with those regulatory requirements. ⁓ and and then secondarily, right, there are challenges that just are inherent with being able to do the work and do it effectively and efficiently and still comply with those regulations. So whether it's people apply applying pressure to them or just the challenges of having so much work to do, it seems to me that for you, you're Basically saying, hey, we take a systems-based approach, we can address both of those challenges ⁓ we can deliver better results. but how do you tell people to get started? How what's what's the the way that you can tell them, hey, there is light at the end of the tunnel, ⁓ right? the steps that we need to take. Jonathan Maddock: It's it's breaking it down into simple components because at blush when you look at the complexity of the problem, it's so overwhelming. And ⁓ mean I'll I'll use the example ⁓ trying to convince my kids to clean their bedroom, right? When it's a mess, I mean my my kids are teenagers. When it's a mess, it's a mess. ⁓ Perry: Okay. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: And trying to ask them to clean their room, it's like, where do you start? And it's just start with the certain areas that you know that you can start seeing progress. So when it comes to trying to complex sit ⁓ the system within a complex environment, it's about taking the small pieces that make sense. ⁓ what makes most sense to a lot of people is the regulatory, even though it's the most complex, it it makes sense that it's I like to talk about the law of constraint versus the discipline of restraint and understanding that regulatory rules are your constraint. It's your boundary. There's nothing you can do about it. You can't change the regulatory side of it. So stop trying to fight the regulation. Accept the regulation for what it is. Accept that it's it's a law that governs how your system operates, what your outer bounds are. What you're what you can focus on is the restraint side of it, what you can and can't control. Perry: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jonathan Maddock: And I think of it like a Venn diagram where you have the what you can control, what you can't control. And then the overlap of where the two come inside the Venn is that area of influence that you can you can't control it, but you can influence the way it works. And so the more you kind of break those areas down, the more start realizing. It's complex, but this it's doable. We can do this. And you start showing small successes. Just like as my child starts cleaning their room and they start seeing them they finally start seeing carpet. It's like, okay, I think I could do this. They finally start seeing the top of their dresser. Okay, I think I can keep holding this. Perry: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. ⁓ you know, AI, as we've about it, it can it can throw things for a loop a little bit. Do you feel like that's a system that can be controlled and and ⁓ guided in the right direction? Or are you finding that a lot of times it's just kind of running out of control for a lot of folks? ⁓ Jonathan Maddock: No, I think a hundred percent it can be controlled, ⁓ with within the system. And it comes back down to people process technology. And the unique part of AI in that picture is AI is a piece of all three components. And I think the scary part is the way AI can actually play within the people pillar. Perry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: We know AI is a tool to technology. We know that it can do process related stuff and and and drive the process, but it can also be part of the people pillar. And that's the scary part for a lot of people, is its role within the people pillar. But that's where governance comes in. Perry: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: I like to think of governance as if you have a three-legged stool. Now instead of a table, we have a stool, you have that little that little wrap that goes around the legs of the stool to make sure that they don't split apart as you sit on it. I think of governance as that wrap that keeps those three legs from splitting apart as the tabletop gets heavier. Perry: Interesting. If you're going to grade how well people are actually that today in their use of AI, score of one to ten, with ten being, you know, optimal controls being put into place and and you know, systems being used around AI and and and one being the bottom, where where would you put the majority of folks that you end up interacting with right ⁓ right now? Jonathan Maddock: Put down in the one to three area. I think that the technology of AI has the capability within AI has taken off so fast that there's a lot of people who are intrigued by it that enjoy using it, and then there are other people that are afraid of it and don't want to touch it. And given and that's within one organization, you could have that extreme of a spectrum. Perry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: Because of the speed in which it's coming out and certain people are gravitating towards the processes side of it and the governance side of it, it's hard to keep up. It's hard to keep moving it at the speed that the technology is being used with within it. And so lot of organizations will have people, hey, go play with it, go use it. There's not a lot of rules put on it and so there's not a lot of consistency of how it's being used from one org from one part of the organization to another part and from one person to another person. Perry: Mm-hmm. Do think this is introducing fragility in a lot of these businesses, exposures to potential threats at a later point or potential problems? Jonathan Maddock: It it it is introducing fragility. you know, the one thing about fragility though is every system is fragile. ⁓ ⁓ just means it's alive. It means it's it's a a living thing. ⁓ we as human beings, like we're we're a very, very, very complex system of systems. We are fragile. Perry: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: you know, just our I look at our system as mind, body, soul. All three of those have a lot of fragility built into it. So fragility isn't a sign, ⁓ isn't necessarily a weakness. Fragility is just a sign that the system is alive needs to be nurtured. Perry: Mm-hmm. So do you have advice or guidance for folks how to allow that fragility to exist, but at the same time to try to strengthen the business or to prepare it for the scenarios where the fragility could expose, you know, ⁓ challenges or problems at a later point? Jonathan Maddock: The the biggest advice is patience. ⁓ just because you see something that's fragile doesn't actually mean it has to be fixed. So awareness is probably the biggest thing. Being aware where your fragilities exist is first step to making sure that you can build a stable and then mature system. So ⁓ Perry: ⁓ okay. Jonathan Maddock: Your goal is to make sure that you have a stable system and and understanding that doesn't mean it's unfragile. It just means that you understand where the fragility is and you have the protective protocols in place so that that fragility doesn't start breaking down the system itself. Perry: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: So the the key advice there really is step back, be patient, but be aware. In the mental health, mental health arena, there's a practice called mindfulness. And it's just being aware ⁓ the the what's going on, what you're feeling, what you're thinking. And that's really what comes down to that mindfulness of how your system is operating. Perry: Yeah. ⁓ it's ⁓ it's such good advice and at the same time it it's it's ⁓ that that it's it is uncomfortable. It's it's one of those things where you really are thinking, ⁓ I've gotta I've gotta sit by and and watch the system at work, trust in the people to to do what they need to do. ⁓ Jonathan Maddock: Uncomfortable. Well, you think about it from a marriage perspective, right? Right, you can have a very stable marriage, right? Everything is going great. But I say one thing stupid at the dinner table, and next thing I know, I'm in the doghouse for a week. Right? Now is that is that the it not being stable or is it fragile? Right? Is that fragility bad? No, I shouldn't have said something stupid. Perry: Mm. I do know, yes. You just. we we learn from from our lessons there. ⁓ let's think about like for for founders in their early days, right? gosh, it's like there's so many points where it's just resource constrained and you're still wearing all the hats and it's premature to think about well, it seems like it's premature to think about systems and and protocols, but ⁓ really I guess the question is, is it Jonathan Maddock: Right. Perry: premature to be thinking about it? Or is it just something where you have to again, you know, be mindful of the resources that you have and know that it's not always going to work out the way that it will ultimately when the system is resourced sufficiently to be able to work? Jonathan Maddock: think it's never it's never too early to start thinking about systems. Now there is a point where it might be too early to put systems in place because you may be overcomplicating when you start really breaking everything down into a system. But systems can be simple. I think of it like a knot right the longer the the longer you wait you have a knot that you're pulling a Perry: Okay. Jonathan Maddock: pulling tighter and tighter and tighter. The longer you wait, the tighter that knot is. Well you don't want a knot in your line. So the longer you wait and you want to take that knot out, the harder it is, the tighter that knot is. Perry: So start sooner rather than later, but We need to watch along the way. Okay. Jonathan Maddock: and it comes back to what you said. Be be mindful. You know, you don't have to overcomplicate stuff. It's not like ⁓ my gosh, I need to have all these systems in place. You know, especially when you're small, sometimes you need to figure out how things are gonna work before you can actually put a proper system in place. Otherwise, you're actually gonna constrain the ambition and progress that you need to actually get off get on your feet. Perry: So thinking about it like with all the the these parts like is there is there one common mistake that you end up seeing happen consistently across founders and it could be related to to to these weaknesses or or whatever else. What's what's the one thing like yeah it is reacting too fast. Okay. Jonathan Maddock: It's it's reacting too fast. Reacting too fast. Like when certain challenges come up or certain hiccups in the road come up, it's trying to jump and react to it too fast instead of taking a step back and seeing it play out. It's really more once you get your systems up and running and you have people in place, you have processes in place, and you're in a meeting and someone Perry: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Jonathan Maddock: hits a roadblock. your first reaction is to jump in and save the day. ⁓ that's probably the biggest mistake I see from founders is wanting to jump in and help. And I think of it like my when I'm helping my kids with homework. Right? If I'm helping them with their math, they need to stumble. They need you know if if I see that they're solving the problem wrong, sometimes need to let them solve the problem wrong. Perry: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: Get to the end and realize the problem's wrong, and then you step back and show them where the pro where it went off track. If you keep stopping them every time they get something wrong, they're not gonna learn what how to fix something that's broken. And so when you step back and you let your team navigate through challenges, they learn how to overcome adversity and they realize they they can operate without you there as this as a central belly button. Perry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. think the the harsh reality, especially today with this quickly as AI is driving change in technology, is that we feel so much under under the time pressure crunch to to deliver and to grow rapidly. you you've had experience now sitting in inside of the the entrepreneurial world and sitting inside of some of the biggest systems that I think honestly sometimes are some of the slowest moving, right? do you find that there's still, ⁓ know the I mean it's just that what's the best way to put it? I think there's there's ⁓ almost an internal resistance ⁓ to slow down, ⁓ right? For that time, just like you said with the your kid and their homework. When your children are doing the homework, if you solve it for them, they go through the pain, they don't learn what they need to learn. inside of ⁓ business environment that we're all in today, right? There's an intense amount of pressure to ⁓ as quickly as possible, to launch products as quickly as possible. but think if I'm understanding correctly, what you're saying is that to get to what is ultimately gonna be the fastest result. ⁓ you need to take the time to apply these systems, to apply these approaches, to be patient, to allow for steps, you know, to go through their natural, you know, progression. but in the end that's going to give a better result. Is that is that a fair way to to describe it? Jonathan Maddock: That's a hundred per a hundred percent. It's mean, I'm I'm not going to downplay the need for speed in the commercial world. it's definitely there. For some people that is a constraint and for some people that is a something something they can control is the the speed in which they operate. Perry: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: ⁓ you need to recognize whether speed is or isn't something that's self-imposed or something that is a constraint on for you to operate. ⁓ when it's something that you can control, it's definitely something that you need to figure out is what's pushing the that need for speed. But ultimately, the more you can step back and you can observe, it getting back to the homework example. Perry: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jonathan Maddock: If I tell my kids all the time, when especially when they're doing math, slow down, slow down, take your time. Because as as you go fast, you're gonna you it's easy to make silly mistakes, especially with math, right? You're building on that once you make one mistake early in the process, it's gonna the complexity of that mistake is gonna compound, you're gonna the amount of rework you're gonna have to do to go back and figure it out, figure out where you went wrong, it's so harder when you're going so fast. Perry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: But if you kind of take your time and you do each step methodically, and what you know, in in the in law school we start we talk about you doing it mechanically, ⁓ you can catch yourself when something doesn't look right. Right? When you have ten times ten times thirty and you write thirty because you missed one of the whether it was the ten Perry: Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Maddock: miss one the zeros, you put thirty because you forgot to put the other zero and you just keep rolling down with thinking thirty, it's if you slu slow down you realize, wait, that doesn't make sense. That that should be three hundred. Perry: Yeah. There's been so so many books talking about how to just move faster. and sometimes they have some good advice, right? And to your point, sometimes there are ⁓ actual that you need to move quickly. A competitor could be entering in your space and you have to make a mover advantage, but you know, based on firsthand experience I've also been in the place where ⁓ you know we've I've been in a place where we've we've deployed that move very, very fast and and you know, kind of systems be damned. then felt the pain later on. ⁓ it it have been great ⁓ to been able to talk to somebody with your experience. for anybody who's who's listening to this today, if they're if they're trying to figure out how to get in touch with you, how to engage with you, what's the best way? I mean, you've got the book, right? Yeah, let's let's definitely say like the book's a great starting point, but you also do work directly with a lot of people. So where should they find you? How should they reach out to you? Jonathan Maddock: The best way to reach me is through LinkedIn at Jonathan Matdock. but I could also be reached through my website fortivianstrata.com. and from there kind of explains kind of what I do and also has the link to the book that that can go to find out more about the book and the link to Amazon to buy the book. And that's kind probably the best place to start. Start with LinkedIn, you know, even through LinkedIn, you can get to my website. Perry: Awesome. Yeah, that's it's great. It's ⁓ I mean look, LinkedIn's a a powerful tool. It's good to know that you're you're there and checking it. book's a great book. ⁓ you know, I I definitely would recommend it to anybody who's who's out there. ⁓ a ⁓ of incredibly powerful information in there. ⁓ it's a lot of work to to put to work after after after reading it too. ⁓ But as we've talked about today, I think I think the reason to do that is that it it can drive so much better results. on our side, we we always like to wrap up, you know, discussions we have with folks like you with ⁓ opportunity to just kind of lay out your your best advice, kind of give out ⁓ you know, whatever information you think is gonna be best for people to hear. So open opportunity for you to share ⁓ on any topic, any any area you'd like to. Jonathan Maddock: Yeah, I mean I I'm gonna go back to systems, right? R respect the system and and look at everything as a system. But probably my biggest advice is to acknowledge yourself as a system. Acknowledge how your mind, body, and soul work together in a very complex system of systems. And for someone who has dealt with the challenges of mental health. I'm gonna leave it with kind of a mental health awareness that you know everyone has mental health challenges one way or the other. And not only respect the mental health challenges that other people are having, but also be kind to yourself and the mental health challenges that you go through ⁓ whether it's ⁓ an hourly basis for some people, a daily basis, a weekly basis. we all have challenges ⁓ and Be kind to yourself and respect those challenges that you go through. Perry: think it's great advice for all of us. So thank you for spending the time with us today. This has been a really informative discussion. ⁓ I think there's a I feel like there's a lot of work. Like the book and like I've got stuff to do, talk to with you I've got stuff to do. ⁓ but it it really makes me feel as though ⁓ a lot of the stuff that you've shared is has really ratified a lot of the things that I think kind of make sense. ⁓ so hopefully the folks that have ⁓ been listening to us today get the same benefit and experience out of it. I hope anyone who's interested will reach out to Jonathan and and ⁓ you know, you know, have him help you to get your systems and into and and to make your business as strong as it can be. So Jonathan, thank you. Jonathan Maddock: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. It was a good time. Thank you.