Leadership Lessons from the Battlefield, with David Fivecoat

Perry Robinson: All right, everybody, I'd like to welcome you to another episode of Ground Control. We've got David Fivecode as our guest today. I'm really excited to have David here. David served 24 years in the United States Army. David's also got a tremendous amount of experience ⁓ helping to enhance and teach people leadership skills and to help companies improve in their execution. He's the author of a book and soon to be a second book. We'll talk a little bit more. about that. David's a a really fantastic guy as well. You can see in his background he's also a cyclist. So we'll cover a bunch of those different things. But David, welcome to ground control today. It's great to have you. David Fivecoat: Perry, thanks for having me on Ground Control. I'm ⁓ I'm excited about ⁓ our conversation today. Perry Robinson: Awesome, awesome. Well, I think that there's ⁓ an interesting part that I didn't share yet about some of the things that you've been doing as part of your leadership training, ⁓ and that is traveling to different battle sites all over the world. You recently were at the Battle of the Little Bighorn in Montana. So ⁓ yeah, before we get into that a little bit, I w I wanna talk about just your general program, right? And and how you decided to start visiting battle sites with leadership groups and and taking them through those. ⁓ because now it's it's been both in the US and in Europe. So what what caused you to to first decide you're going to start taking groups all over the world and taking them to these famous battlegrounds? David Fivecoat: Yeah, so so I guess ⁓ gotta we've gotta roll it back ⁓ just a little bit. I attended the United States Military Academy at West Point and graduated with a degree in military history. and ⁓ I love military history. that was one of the main reasons to go to West Point was ⁓ that the idea of Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. David Fivecoat: you know, actually going to attend the place where a bunch of the World War II generals had also ⁓ attended, like Patton and Eisenhower and and and Bradley. of the things that the military did the US Army does, ⁓ we actually stole it from the Prussian army, which is the predecessor ⁓ the German army, was this idea of a staff ride. And the German army in the late eighteen hundreds said, Hey, we haven't fought a war in a while. We need to figure out a way that we can teach our officers and leaders about war because we haven't experienced it. And what they hit upon was taking folks to Napoleonic battles ⁓ talking through the decisions ⁓ and communication and other challenges that that that the those folks, both on the French side and and the German side or the Prussian side experienced. And they use that as a great training tool. The US Army adopted it as well, continued to use it all the way up until when I served, which was from nineteen ninety-three to to twenty seventeen. when I retired in twenty seventeen, ⁓ I had the opportunity to go work for another company ⁓ that took corporate groups to battlefields and it was an ideal job. I got to ⁓ One talk about military history, which which I love. And then second, which I love even more, which is helping grow and develop leaders using some army leadership principles and leadership ideas. in 2020, COVID hit. I ended up ⁓ starting my own company ⁓ in 2020, got into some executive coaching, and then ⁓ in 2024, I taking my own clients. ⁓ to battlefields. And so this is our third year of taking folks to battlefields. like you said earlier, ⁓ we just just came out of Montana ⁓ with the the Battle of the Little Bighorn, which is where Custer meets his ultimate demise. and you know we're gonna end up doing ⁓ we'll we'll we will done over twenty battlefields here ⁓ by the end of the year. Perry Robinson: How long do you spend out there in each one of these battlefields typically? David Fivecoat: Yeah, so the the typical model is ⁓ and and we'll use I'll use generically Monday through Wednesday for a for a corporate group, but the corporate group has to to arrive at the hotel, which we base out of by five o'clock on Monday. We do a working dinner where we present ⁓ a strategic overview, help folks understand the battle a little bit better, ⁓ and then ⁓ transition into one of the leadership concepts that w we're gonna teach and use on the battlefield. Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. David Fivecoat: We spend all day on Tuesday out on the battlefield. and when we come back to the hotel at the end of the day before we go to dinner, we do a after action review, which is another military concept and process ⁓ to capture lessons learned from that day ⁓ on the battlefield, because we want those folks to take the leadership ideas back and be able to apply them the next day when they get back from work. Then typically we do a half day on Wednesday. ⁓ we'll go back out on the battlefield in the morning or we may do ⁓ some work in the conference room of actual applying some of the stuff to some of their work challenges. and we tend to wrap up after a a working lunch and an after action review around one o'clock so folks can go catch their flight back and be back at work on Thursday. That model seems to work for ⁓ most companies, but ⁓ we're we're open to change it. ⁓ I'm working on a program right now that's just a one day program for ⁓ for a person that we've done some work ⁓ for ⁓ before because they just didn't have as much time to dedicate ⁓ to it. But ⁓ that's kind that's kind of our model. Perry Robinson: So the Prussians, it it makes complete sense going out to Napoleonic battlefields. We're talking about, you know, training soldiers. ⁓ Taking people like me, office workers, and pulling them out on the battlefield, how how how much different is that than sitting in a conference room or on a board table or something like that and trying to run the same exercises? What do you find ends up being like a big differentiator that that drives additional value for ⁓ to to be out on the battlefield itself? David Fivecoat: Well, I I I'm willing to bet well I'll I I'll throw a question back to you. How many over the course of your career, how many keynote ⁓ speakers leadership do you think you sat through ⁓ in your corporate career? Perry Robinson: dozens if not hundreds at this point. David Fivecoat: And how many can you actually recall and provide one idea that they gave you that you've used? Perry Robinson: not that many. Not that many. Honestly, there's there's a couple that did stand that do stand out, but out of ⁓ all different keynotes that I've sat through, I think probably it'd be like two or three percent that I'm actually remembering anything significant from. David Fivecoat: Well ⁓ so last year I ⁓ I did Gettysburg program with a a corporate leader whose name's Benny. ⁓ he brought his team to Gettysburg. and he brought his team to Gettysburg because he had done a Gettysburg program with me six years ago and he said, Hey, this is the only leadership training that I have referenced over the last six years and my team's changed. ⁓ we've got new people, and so I wanna bring this team there, so we continue to have that kind of impact. The battlefield programs are sticky. First off, you're gonna be on a historic site, you'll be standing outside, ⁓ and you will be actually standing where Joshua Chamberlain ordered the bayonet charge on Little Round Top, which sort of saved the day for the Union Army on July 2nd, 1863. So that's the first thing that makes it different. And then we're gonna throw Perry Robinson: Yeah. David Fivecoat: Some ideas at you from military leadership, which is slightly different from what you may have seen from corporate leadership. But those ideas, we have taken them and made sure that they are applicable in a corporate environment. And so that the combination of those two things of being on a place where somebody actually made some really tough decisions under extreme pressure, and then Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. David Fivecoat: Getting a little bit of a new idea of a leadership idea or leadership concept. And at at Gettysburg on where Joshua Chamberlain ordered the bayonet charge, we do leading in crisis. And we talk about the six factors that are important if you are ever leading a team in crisis, which Joshua Chamberlain epitomized on that day in eighteen sixty three. And that is why that kind of stuff is memorable. And then we try to lock in that leadership idea with our after action reviews at the end of the day. And then finally, when our wrap up happens on that Wednesday, we also ask everybody to commit to using one of the new ideas that they were given on the battlefield when they go back. And so we work really hard at TFCG to try to make it as sticky as possible. So those ideas stay with the team and they use those ideas going forward. Perry Robinson: makes a a lot of sense. in Gettysburg it it it's you know, I think it's a great forum. Little Bighorn is a pretty brutal leadership case study, right? So ⁓ you know, Custers working on incomplete intelligence. Reno is losing control in the opening minutes and meanwhile sitting bulls built a decentralized coalition of a bunch of other tribes that, you know, are working in coordination. So what made you choose the Battle of Little Bighorn as one of the places to take and and teach these lessons? Is it a place where you're taking companies that are needing to do a massive turnaround or taking on the biggest challenges in their existence? What's the what's the the draw? David Fivecoat: Where you're taking companies that are needing to do a massive turnaround or taking on the biggest challenges in their existence? What's the what's the So I really like the the battle at Little Bighorn you I think a lot of folks fancy themselves as almost a Custer-esque ⁓ kind of leader. remember, Custer at that point in time was ⁓ one of the famous leaders that came out of the Civil War. He was present on every major battle. He was from captain to one star general at age twenty-four. He's one of the youngest ⁓ general officers. And then for the the next ten years after the Civil War, he's the most famous Indian fighter in the nation. and so he is, ⁓ know this larger than life charismatic ⁓ figure, bold, dashing, audacious, and he goes into this battle and the that he was always able to do don't work anymore. And the Native Americans change what they've done for the last ten years on the planes. And Custer cannot see that fast enough. And, you know, w I know we're we're gonna talk a little bit later about change and AI and and stuff. And so it is a perfect metaphor for talking about AI and changing situations. The other thing that I didn't Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. David Fivecoat: understand until you get out there and walk the ground is it is not a a tabletop ⁓ or a a pool table. It is a series of valleys and ridges and a river you're like, how could Custer do this? And you get out there and you stand where he stood and you still can't see where the the Native American village would be. he's spread over three miles ⁓ from east to you know, from where Reno and Benteen eventually ⁓ set up defensive positions. he's trying to do the same things that has worked against Native Americans and and Sitting Bull has put together ⁓ a coalition. you might call it a team of teams. He's, ⁓ you leading indirectly. he provided broad vision and guidance to the team and they decide to fight differently. and so there's so many ⁓ you know, useful lessons that, you know, ⁓ clients or other c ⁓ other folks out there in the corporate arena can take away from the little bit of cord. Perry Robinson: Love you bring that part up because I mean the idea was we'd eventually get around to but I think we just must talk about it now, right? AI and ⁓ and lot of the folks that we work with ⁓ are like significant change around them, right? And it's not maybe a battlefield, but you know it probably feels from day to day like the challenges are rising to levels that they haven't experienced before. David Fivecoat: experience before and and opportunities right and so that's that's part of it is that we we have with AI both a lot of challenges that businesses are confronting Perry Robinson: And and opportunities, right? And so that's that's part of it, is that we we have with AI both a lot of challenges that businesses are confronting and we have a lot of opportunities that they're now able to take advantage of. if Custer is staying in a ⁓ just the same things that he'd learned and practiced before, and the Native Americans were trying new techniques. David Fivecoat: That they're now able to take advantage ⁓ Custer ⁓ ⁓ in a ⁓ ⁓ same things that he ⁓ and practiced before, ⁓ the Native Americans were learning new techniques, ⁓ love to think about ⁓ from ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ would you ⁓ would you Perry Robinson: love to think about that from an AI perspective, right? So you refer the the OODA observed orient decide act, right? How would you how would you apply or tell people they can apply those concepts and and some of the things that you've learned from the Battle of the Little Bighorn to some of the challenges that people are experiencing in their business that are arising from David Fivecoat: tell people where you can apply those concepts and and some of the things that we've learned from like a little bit more to some of the challenges that people are experiencing in their business that are arising from the opportunities and sometimes the challenges may not be well let me talk ⁓ let me talk for a second about the OODA loop. Perry Robinson: The opportunities and sometimes the challenges fade high. David Fivecoat: And that's you mentioned it before. It was originally created by John Boyd, who was a fighter pilot that that was a fighter pilot in the Korean War. and idea was it was a it ⁓ it really an idea to teach fighter pilots ⁓ on to dog fight better. And the idea is first you observe, you invert observe the environment, then you orient on the environment based on your ⁓ historic framework and models, and then you make a decision and then you act on that decision. And so that's the the OODA loop. And the idea has taken from that original idea of, hey, this is a great idea for fighter pilots and how to dog fight better. and expanded on anybody that is trying to do things that involve time. And it and so the idea of an OODA loop Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David Fivecoat: is anybody that is trying to outpace the competition by changing or evolving faster, the OODA loop has some utility for them. It is a great tool to think about problems that involve time, not just military problems or dogfighting. And so I'll take it to the Custer analogy and then I'll try to do a a corporate analogy as well. So Custer, one of the things that he did better during the Civil War than anybody else was he had a very fast OODA loop and he could outthink the enemy ⁓ make decisions faster than they could. And in this case, when he's at the Little Bighorn he observes what the Native Americans are doing. He orients them on them, but he uses a flawed model because he doesn't realize that rather than running away, which the which been the problem of the US cavalry on the plains since the end of the Civil War, is hey, we can't get the Indians to stand and fight. And so we need to always try to be operating like they're gonna run away. And so ⁓ so that's his mental model. And he applies that and he tries to divide his forces. He he has about a third of the the 7th Cavalry and he divides ⁓ divides the forces in two to try to get to either end the Native Americans and catch them in sort of a two-prong attack. What he doesn't realize is that the Native Americans aren't running away and they're standing and fighting. And so when he divides his forces Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. David Fivecoat: and makes that decision and he makes and he acts on it, he just divides his forces into smaller amounts, which then enable the Native Americans to overwhelm and and kill the two hundred and forty five soldiers of the seventh calf that die there in Montana on that day. So does that does that make sense ⁓ as far as as the OODA loop and how it applies out there in in Montana? Perry Robinson: Yeah, it does. It does. It's a really interesting thing. So ⁓ fact that it ties in so much to to time, right? ⁓ for a lot of folks in the you know the RFP space, right? AI's big introductions, both the capability to get more RFPs answered quickly, but you know, there are obviously people on the opposite side that are using AI to create more RFPs and more RFP questions. but it's not about answering RFPs. Ultimately the the big effort is around winning sales opportunities and Yeah, what I've heard time and time again, ⁓ you know, from folks in in sales leadership positions, time kills deals. Right? So it's it's always comes down to the capability to work within significant time constraints. I've gotta imagine that that's a similar issue for a lot of the other businesses that you work with, right? That David Fivecoat: Gotta imagine that that's a similar issue for a lot of the other businesses that you work with, right? That time is a massive constraint on the opportunity they have. Perry Robinson: time is a massive constraint on the opportunity they have to and change their business, to pursue new opportunities. How ⁓ you people through some of these battlefield lessons, the Hoodle Loop and and the capability to figure out ways to optimize time and to tackle the big challenges at the same time? David Fivecoat: Lessons put a loop at the time. Yeah, ⁓ y you know, this is So I guess ⁓ you know, I start from you know, I'm a small business, I'm trying to, you know, win sales, I'm trying to be, you know, faster and more nimble than the competition, and you know, it is challenging because it's tough. You know, that whole orient part of the OODA loop is challenging because do you use the past model to orient on things and do it the same old way, which or do you go ahead and use some sort of AI tool to also help you? am still convinced at this point in time, at least I ⁓ use both Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. David Fivecoat: ⁓ ChatGPT and Claude that they are good, but they aren't great. for the most part, when I find when I ⁓ those tools to write things, ⁓ that I end up having to go back through and edit it. because for Chat tends to ⁓ add Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. David Fivecoat: Where ⁓ it's a four parag ⁓ a four sentence paragraph, they add a fifth sentence that is redundant to the fourth sentence. And unless you're reading it as a human, it sounds good, but it would sound better if you cut down to four sentences rather than five sentence. I don't know if that's something that you guys ⁓ see, but it's something that I see w as I try to use AI as a tool to help me be a better business. Perry Robinson: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's it's definitely it it's we talk about cognitive load, right? ⁓ a lot of the AI tooling where it that's it what can look incredibly good, right? But there still needs to be a human in the loop and in a lot of cases you need to have ⁓ you know a human's persuasive capability to really think about intent in replying to an RFP or preparing a sales proposal. David Fivecoat: Okay. Perry Robinson: On the intent side, right, leaders intent is one of the big lessons that you teach. thinking about ⁓ thinking about this from the perspective of ⁓ RFP and RFP they are leading the charge across a wide group of people that don't report into them. David Fivecoat: The intent side, right? leaders intent is Thinking about. Perry Robinson: And typically under incredible time constraints and typically they're trying to get ⁓ people to do stuff while they've got other things to do. You know, if there's one thing that you were able to pass on to folks, whether they're actually in a leadership role or they're just taking charge and helping to direct that activity, there's one thing you can do to one thing you can teach them, helps them to keep the team from fracturing. What would that be? David Fivecoat: typically under multiple time constraints and typically they're trying to get ⁓ people to do stuff but they know things to You know, if there's one thing that you were able to pass on to folks that they're actually in the leadership role or they're just So the leader's intent is a i i it it's a great tool that folks can steal from the military. ⁓ the way that I teach it is it it's comprised of three components, ⁓ a purpose statement, which is a why statement, ⁓ key tasks, which are ⁓ like it sounds key tasks, and then an end state. What does success look like in in it at a future point in time. And a couple things for folks to take away as they lead their RFP teams. The first thing is is it's it's a great bumper sticker to really think about how do we convey the important amount important to the team. The first one is you're going to align the team around whatever that purpose statement is. And most corporate groups that I have worked with ⁓ struggle write a good why statement. Because a good wise statement enables somebody to make a decision when you aren't around. And so, for instance, a a good one might be, hey, we want to you this RFP. You know, ⁓ that be and so folks know that, hey, if I'm not doing the lowest cost or I'm not writing this in the right way that's gonna result in the sale, I can make those decisions. ⁓ so i it it it's a line there. And I know that's that's sort of a broad kind of thing. Key tasks can be, hey, you know, we need to write the RFP, we need to make sure that we run the numbers so we're gonna make a profit off of this, you know, you know, a couple other could be key tasks. In state, what does success look like? Hey, by July first or ⁓ say August first, twenty twenty six, you our company has successfully won this RF RFP would be a great end state for for aligning a team. The the the biggest things out of those three things with a with an RFP leader that's trying to help their team win that RFP is writing spending some intellectual energy on on a purpose statement. We often write purpose statements ⁓ we call them purpose statements, but they're really how or what statements because they're telling folks how to do it. They're not enabling folks as conditions change and as the environment changes to make good decisions. ⁓ and so that's the first thing. And then the second thing is writing a good end state. I say that the two things out of a good end state which help convey your vision to to help move the team forward is a date in time in the future and Perry Robinson: Yeah. David Fivecoat: how we're gonna measure our success or not success. know corporate groups are sometimes reluctant to do that because that's a risk. and I understand that. I also am a big fan of only one metric, but I also know that corporate groups also struggle with one metric and so I'm a realist and hey you could say, Hey, we're gonna w you know, we wanna ⁓ obtain ten percent profit, ⁓ ten percent revenue growth, ⁓ or whatever number numbers that you want. But ⁓ those are the things that I think a leader could take away ⁓ from our our conversation today and apply them into in into you know trying to to Bring that RFP team together that is an ad hoc organization that needs to be aligned on purpose and needs to know the direction that they're going. If they could give them the purpose in the end state and they've thought some put some intellectual energy into it, I think they'll be surprised at what their team can accomplish. Perry Robinson: You know, it's it's interesting 'cause we think so much about David Fivecoat: You know, it's Perry Robinson: team and I think a lot of the folks that work inside of you know sales ops a lot of folks that are working in RevOps and RFP response teams they they're thinking about the greater good of the company and those company objectives a lot of the time. they're working under such tremendous pressure driven timelines that a lot of times you know when we get a chance to talk to them we start to learn about them individually that they don't get as much time to spend on developing themselves. ⁓ David Fivecoat: that a lot of times you know when we get a chance to talk to ⁓ we start to learn about them individually that they don't get as much time to spend on developing themselves. ⁓ and leadership skills, whether you're an individual contributor and you're just thinking about ways to do it. Perry Robinson: and leadership skills, whether you're an individual contributor and you're just thinking about ways to do ad hoc leadership on an effort, or whether your your actual role inside the company is managing a team of people, are tremendously valuable. You've worked with a number of the folks inside of Rocket Docs to help them advance their own capabilities and skills. what are some of the things that you think that David Fivecoat: Managing a team of people are tremendously valuable. You've worked with a number of the folks since that rock box to help them advance their own capabilities and skills. what are some of the things that you think that people ⁓ apply daily practice ⁓ to they need teams whether on a ad hoc basis or formally as a ⁓ manager? Perry Robinson: people can apply in in daily practice to improve how they lead teams, whether on an ad hoc basis or formally as a manager. David Fivecoat: I'll use an outside the Rocket Rocket Doc envir enterprise story. So Chamberlain, who we talked about earlier, is the ⁓ ⁓ he's played by Jeff Daniels in the movie Gettysburg. he was a professor of rhetoric from from Bowden ⁓ college. The thing that he was really good at was he acknowledged that he was not a professional soldier and he worked really hard to learn how to be the best professional soldier that he could Perry Robinson: Sounds good. David Fivecoat: When we're at Little Round Top, I will ask the group, Hey, what's a good leadership book or management book that you've read in last twelve, twenty-four months that and it's I I have been disappointed that you tend to in a group of ten, maybe one or two people have actually done any self study on ⁓ developing own tools. ⁓ and I get it. They're busy. you know, they're trying to balance ⁓ work and home ⁓ family and all that. And ⁓ and I it. But look ⁓ look ways, ⁓ you know, ⁓ if you have to commute, if you're not ⁓ if you're ⁓ if you're not lucky enough to work from home, ⁓ there's opportunities to listen to podcasts or books on tape on on Audible. there's there's all kinds of options out there as ways to to do self-study. to improve your leadership skills. If you think you're just gonna go into work and your leadership skills will magically improve, that's the that's the number one thing is figure out a way to do some self study to to improve yourselves. And I think working with some of the Rocket Docs teams, that was one of the things that I brought to the the relationship ⁓ I, you know, you would have to read a chapter before ⁓ a session ⁓ and then we would discuss it and ⁓ hey and sometimes I would get it right and that would resonate ⁓ with somebody and sometimes I'd get it wrong and that's okay. but ⁓ that having that accountability ⁓ and know, spending, you know, an hour a week to read one article on leadership or management is ⁓ i is to improving yourself as a leader. It's one of those things that you've got to work on. And and that was one of the great things about the military is the military acknowledged that leadership development needed to happen. And know, there were several stops in our career when you would get six months or nine months to go to school and think about leadership and think about how you when you go back out to the force, you would apply it. And then when you were out in the force, we would have professional development sessions on a monthly or quarterly basis. where we talked about different facets of leadership. I don't think that happens as much in the corporate world. and so those are easy things to make yourself better. So you move up that ladder, you you know, ⁓ develop your skills and and and you know the the the business leadership you know section in the bookstore or on Amazon is one of the largest ones out there because there are a bunch of folks out there pumping out leadership books every year. And so you can, you know, whether you like Lencioni, or you want to do Jim Collins or ⁓ you know, ⁓ any of folks are out there that you can grab onto and and take that and that as a skill to improve your leadership. I don't know if I actually answered the question. You got me on a you got me on a soapbox there, so you can come back and ask it again if I didn't ⁓ if I didn't answer it. ⁓ Perry Robinson: Yeah. I I love the fact that that the answer actually is is in part like, hey, take the time to do some self-study. Right. ⁓ so but I'd be I'd be remiss if I didn't mention your own book, Growing Your Grit, right? And ⁓ just for anybody who's who's listening to this, you know, if you're listening to the whole thing, Lexi, make sure that this part's not in the LinkedIn cuts, but people who will actually listen to the whole deal. If you're in the first twenty people who send us an email, response back or post ⁓ a ⁓ this on LinkedIn, ⁓ then we'll send you a copy of David's book. ⁓ but David, tell tell folks a little bit about David Fivecoat: repost this on LinkedIn, then we'll send you a copy of David's book. ⁓ David Perry Robinson: Your book and ⁓ you know, to your point, there are so many books out there. What made you decide to take the time? to one David Fivecoat: Yeah, so ⁓ y I I joke now that the book was my COVID project. 'cause I started writing it in the fall of twenty twenty. it was published in in this in June of twenty twenty one. ⁓ and I had always wanted to write a book. ⁓ I I I to write. I I ⁓ I think I'm unfortunately for you during this podcast I think I'm a better writer than I am a speaker. but And and so ⁓ I was I was struggling to figure out, I was blogging on leadership and ⁓ and somebody said, Hey, you're kinda gritty, why don't you write a book on grit? And I had read Angela Duckworth's book on grit. ⁓ she she's done some phenomenal work ⁓ on grit. I don't think she t got it exactly right as a as a grit I would call myself a grit practitioner rather than a grit ⁓ theorist. ⁓ Perry Robinson: Okay. David Fivecoat: ⁓ i and so I think think there's ⁓ there's a bunch of things that go into grit, but if folks out there want to get gritty or more gritty than they are and actually succeed at things, first off they need to understand their own personal purpose. And that's one of the early chapters in the book. all the the folks that I work with ⁓ as coaching clients get a copy of the book and ⁓ first they are given ⁓ homework. to come in with their personal purpose statement. And most folks haven't thought about it, about, hey, what's my why? Why am I here? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And why does that matter? And I'm I I'm I'm pretty r ruthless on this. Say your purpose statement's got to include both your work self and your home self because if if you try to have two separate ones, one's gonna win out. And so you've got to do the hard work and think about what really matters to you. ⁓ and then I say, okay, we're gonna you know, set do some goal setting and one of the that's the next chapter in the book. and ⁓ think one of the Let me back up for a second on goal setting. Did you set a New Year's resolution? Perry Robinson: I did. David Fivecoat: Okay. Did you succeed on accomplishing your New Year's resolution? Perry Robinson: fifty fifty so far. It's been starting to stop for me, but it's not over yet. David Fivecoat: Okay. All right. All right, well good. You know, there's there's that day. I think it's January nineteenth, which is officially New Year's Eve resolution quitting day. ⁓ it supposedly ⁓ 60% of Americans do New Year's resolutions. very few actually accomplish them. And I think ⁓ of the reasons why folks don't accomplish their New Year's resolutions is they don't do great goal setting. ⁓ first off, they don't ⁓ you know ⁓ Perry Robinson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. David Fivecoat: You know, I know it's a a a a a trope, but the the SMART goals. SMART goals work for people, ⁓ you know, for your own personal goals. They're not just business goals, you know. So specific, measurable, ⁓ actionable, ⁓ realistic, and time bound. Frankly, if you only did specific, ⁓ measurable and time bound, you'd be okay. But, you know, most folks say ⁓ I want to lose 10 pounds. Well, it doesn't have a date that you're going to do it. It doesn't have any ⁓ any concept on how you're going to do it. And then the other reason why I think folks fail is they don't look at the trade offs or try to really set and go, Okay, where am I finding the white, you know, I want to go get a master's degree. Where am I going to find the white space on the calendar to do this? What am I going to what am I going to give up? What am I not going to do? ⁓ in order to accomplish this new goal. Because we're all we're all busy people and we've all packed our s our calendar full. It's not like ⁓ if you've got a new goal that you've got like, ⁓ I've I'm only working two hours a day, so I I can fit this in, it's not a big deal. So those things, ha understanding your personal purpose and then building good goals, I think are the first two key key components into Becoming grittier or growing your grit. Perry Robinson: Very cool. So follow-up question to that for ya. there are a lot of folks out there that are ⁓ are know, and it's it's you know, there's just to your point, there's so many books, right? there's so ideas. Have you have you figured out ⁓ a good way to apply those so it doesn't become like the nineteenth with the ⁓ New Year's Eve Resolution, where you you you read the book, you take the concept, you apply it for two or three days. David Fivecoat: Read the book. Perry Robinson: And then it drops off. David Fivecoat: Then it drops Well, I it not on I I'll talk about how we do ⁓ the intent. And so you know, we'll talk about it in the concept of, hey, this was Sitting Bull's leader's intent, this was Custer's leader's intent at Little Bighorn. And then we'll go out on the battlefield and ⁓ you know, may go ⁓ you know, throw it back to the clients on, hey, ⁓ what was ⁓ leader's intent right here and they have to come up with ⁓ an idea of what what that would look like. I and then we eventually get them back to the conference room on that Wednesday and we make them write their own business leaders intent. So the idea of actually taking what we've talked about and actually doing it. And I'm a huge proponent of of doing it. And so they have to do it and write it down Perry Robinson: Mm-hmm. That's true. David Fivecoat: And I get it. know, they've never written one before. It's not gonna be great. I get it. But you've got to start somewhere. And so I I like being the accountability tool ⁓ or the forcing function or whatever you want to call it and forcing folks to actually do things, you know, ⁓ you know, ⁓ you know, with the coaching clients, you know, they have to do their personal purpose statement and they have to do their you know, they have to come back with one personal and one professional goal they wanna accomplish during the during the the coaching sessions. And so that drives them forward because they actually have to do it. They're not just sitting passively and going, Okay, well I read Jim Collins is good to create. I can't apply the flywheel. So you know, so ⁓ you know, I'm a big I I'm big fan of making folks ⁓ folks do it and try to put it into practice. Perry Robinson: That's well it's it's a you know, it it's not easy to do, but it's it's the the important part, right? And to your point, there's a lot of great stuff out there with big ideas, but the capability to actually put them into play is a whole different challenge. There's another one that you've taken on that is kind of a big challenge. I imagine that you've had to set goals and timelines. So you just finished the rough draft of ⁓ Work for Fighting Men, which is a historical fiction novel about the 69th Infantry Regiment during World War One. And that's I guess gonna be coming out when? In in the spring of December? Okay. David Fivecoat: Yes. I hope in the spring, ⁓ spring of twenty seven. so I really l loved World War II, love and continue to love World War II history. and I did the invasion of Iraq in two thousand three, and fought all the way up to Mosul and then I came out on a list to go to what was called the Command and General Staff College, ⁓ which is at Fort Leavenworth, ⁓ Kansas. It's a year-long course. It's for majors. I'd just gotten promoted to major. And so Perry Robinson: Yeah. David Fivecoat: I left Iraq and went to Leavenworth while they were there they offered an opportunity to earn a ⁓ master's degree and you had to write a master's thesis. And so I wrote a master's thesis ⁓ on the and sixty fifth infantry ⁓ in World One, trying to see if they were as good a unit ⁓ as of the other World War One units that are are supposed to be, ⁓ you know, for their their time. ⁓ the argument worked for the first five battles that the one sixty fifth was in, and it falls apart at Musargon when they kind of get thrown into the line at the last minute and they're not able to put all the things into place to make them successful and they take, you know, huge, huge amounts of casual casualties. and so I really I know anything about World War One. It was a dumb decision because I didn't I hadn't done any of the background reading on World War One. so I spent the first three months, ⁓ know, every moment that I wasn't doing stuff for the the course reading ⁓ World War One ⁓ history ⁓ so could get up to speed. And then I should have done it on World War II because I already had the background information. But I was like, ⁓ I've already done World War II. I should do World War One, I want to learn something new. This is good. ⁓ Perry Robinson: Yeah. David Fivecoat: my free time suffered for that. but i interestingly because I did the master's thesis, the government hangs the ⁓ masters online. And there's somebody out there that's whole business model is they take the master's theses and ⁓ republish ⁓ do a on demand and republish them. And so You can go buy my it's called Fine Conduct Under Fire. It was the w the the master's thesis. ⁓ you can get it on Amazon. I think the guy has maybe sold five over the ten years I've tracked him, but I don't get any money for it because that's his whole business model is selling these masters thesis when he puts a a a cover on it and and ships it out. And I was I was like, well what You know, I really enjoyed that ⁓ that unit and the Grow Your Grit book works great, but it it it it isn't a lead-in into ⁓ battlefield stuff, which I really like. It's more of a lead in for the executive coaching stuff that I do. ⁓ was like, how can I, you write something, you know, write a second book, which I've been playing around with for a while. It's been five years since I published the other one. Perry Robinson: It is David Fivecoat: And so I was like, well, maybe I could take that master's thesis and and rework it. And w one of the reasons why I really liked Gettysburg is you know, ⁓ Shahara wrote the book Killer Angels, which was the Pulitzer Prize winner for nineteen seventy, got made into the movie Gettysburg in nineteen ninety-three. ⁓ I was like, How can I do an a historic fiction book that sort of ties into what I'm doing with the battlefield stuff? And so, whoa, wait, I could go revisit what I did in two thousand three and t two thousand four and turn it into a historic fiction book. so The work for fighting men, it comes from a poem written by Joyce Kilmer, who was the most famous poet in America in nineteen he a book he wrote a poem called Trees in nineteen thirteen, makes him the most famous poet. He's part of the unit. Bill Donovan, who goes on to found the OSS, is a battalion commander. He earns the Medal of Honor in charge of the unit. and so it's got these these amazing characters that are part of the story. And I got really deep into researching these guys and there's a whole bunch of books out there. And there's been some other books that have been published since I wrote my thesis. So I've been going through them. A guy wrote a book on Father Duffy, who's if you're ever in Times Square, there is a statue to Father Duffy in Times Square, who's the the chaplain the the priest for the the regiment during during the war, but he's he's there in Times Square. a guy wrote a book on on his his experience during World War One and so i ⁓ been fun to get back into it and revisit it twenty years later. I've got twenty years different perspective on things and I'm trying to write a fiction book rather than but wanna be hit you know, it's a historic fiction book, so I'm trying to be as accurate as possible. So that all being said, my daughter and I just ⁓ spent 10 days in europe. we did ⁓ four days in Berlin, a day in Strasbourg, and she said, I want to go for hikes ⁓ Europe. And I said, you know, there's a couple of World War I battlefields that would be great to go for hikes on. ⁓ we hiked ⁓ ⁓ Battle of the Orc and the Battle of St. Michel and ⁓ and I realize I have to go back in and and change a few things 'cause I got it wrong in in the rough draft. Well, like they can't see from this one area where I thought they could see the where the German lines were. It doesn't work, and so I gotta go back in and change it so it's historically accurate. But it's been fun. I got eighty five thousand words, twenty seven chapters, and l think we said earlier I'm an iterative writer and so ⁓ I will keep, you know, chiseling away at it till it it's it's decent and then ⁓ we'll we'll see if we can get it get it through a real editor and and ⁓ get it published. Perry Robinson: There you go. It's ⁓ applying your your your approach and your technique accomplish a goal. That's great. Yep. There you go. David Fivecoat: Right. I I have to demonstrate some grit to actually publish another book. ⁓ and i i if you have never if for those out there that are like, hey, I would love to publish a book, it is ⁓ if if you want if you're listening, I'm happy to jump on a call. I've done it with other folks and talk talk you through all the things ⁓ you shouldn't do that I made mistakes on. ⁓ it is a it is a slog. Perry Robinson: Ha ha. David Fivecoat: ⁓ and you have to have an incredible amount of perseverance to get a book done. And so I applaud anybody else that's out there that ⁓ that has ⁓ put a book together. Perry Robinson: It's lot of work. ⁓ So as we as we get towards the end here, I want to make sure that people know exactly how to get in touch with you, how to work with you know the Five Code Consulting Group, on battlefield experiences, whether executive coaching or even if they just you know want to find your book. So what's the best way for them to find you? how do you like to be contacted? David Fivecoat: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ so first way is ⁓ the website ⁓ it's the the Fivecoat Consulting Group dot com. it's got links to the book, it's got ⁓ ways to reach out and contact me about battlefields or or executive coaching and love to to do that. If if you can't remember that, I know it's a mouthful. reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm I'm on there as both David FiveCoat and the Five Coat Consulting Group, so you can find it either way. Send me a a DM that way and I'm happy to set up a call and we can talk about ⁓ doing coaching or taking your group ⁓ to a battlefield. But those are the two main ways ⁓ to get a hold of me. Perry Robinson: Exceptional. okay, so ⁓ close out every episode the same way with everybody. ⁓ that's we make the floor's yours, so any word of guidance that you have, anything you want to leave the audience with, this is an opportunity for you to to do so. David Fivecoat: I really appreciated the the opportunity to come on ⁓ the podcast and and be part of ground control. I I guess the thing that I ⁓ that's worth reiterating ⁓ you take opportunity to study and ⁓ and enable yourself be better at being a better leader. ⁓ one of the that I ⁓ that I did I worked Perry Robinson: Yeah. David Fivecoat: ⁓ for a a corporate group doing executive coaching. ⁓ I did about 25 of their executives. And the the two things that across the board everybody wanted their leader to be better at was communications and leader development. And so if you don't if you don't know ⁓ you can get better at, those two things are There's ample opportunity to improve your communications and improve how you develop the leaders ⁓ that are under under you. And there's plenty of books out there that you can ⁓ take and read and then try to apply some of those ideas. And some of the ideas won't work, and that's okay. it's part of the process of getting better as a leader is taking that risk and trying something new and seeing if it works ⁓ and ⁓ seeing if your team ⁓ gets better ⁓ at what they're doing because of the way that you're communicating or doing leader leader leader development. Perry Robinson: Well, thank you, David. Appreciate you coming to join us. appreciate you showing up on on our ground control episode this time around. ⁓ folks, for for those of you out there and it's it's the Five Coke Consulting Group. and you can find David at the website or via LinkedIn. ⁓ I definitely would would strongly recommend both as an executive coach ⁓ for leadership development and and of course the battlefield experiences are are just you know ⁓ tremendous way to be able to go out and spend some some time really working on on learning and honing those leadership skills with David. So David, thank you and ⁓ thanks everybody for joining us today. David Fivecoat: Dave, thank you. And ⁓ thanks everybody joining us today. Thanks, Perry.