Governance, Decision Rights, and AI with Catherine Webb

Perry: Catherine, it's great to have you on ground control today. Catherine Webb: Thank you. Perry: We're so excited. you've got like this incredible experience that you bring to the industry. And I'm excited for us to learn more about that today. so first things are just kind of like leading up to that are you know like a little bit background y but I just how did you get into the space? Like what's your what's your story on that side? Catherine Webb: It just happened. Perry: Okay. Okay. Bryan: Yeah. Catherine Webb: So I actually started out my career many, many years ago. and I started out in nonprofit. In nonprofit. And Perry: Hmm. Okay. Catherine Webb: I became an assistant executive director, quickly moved Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: up the ranks, but my value wasn't being appreciated. And so younger Kathy said, I'm not gonna stand for this. And so And I went to my first engagement in finance. and so I went over to Wells Fargo advisors and all of their Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: predecessors prior to that and actually started consulting for the first time. Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: so when I left the nonprofit, you know, they realized the error of their ways, right? and Perry: Ha ha ha. Catherine Webb: they started paying me a hefty sum to do consulting on the side while Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: I worked in the financial industry. And you Perry: Right. Catherine Webb: know, my story is I started from the bottom and worked my way up. So I started out as an executive assistant and worked my way up through the ranks. And there was a a partner who realized that I had a talent for planning things really well. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: And he said, Why don't you come over here with me and you know, let's start Grooming you as a project manager. So I started out as a project analyst, quickly moved up to a project manager, and had so much fun back in the day when we used to have TROs and you used to get restrained in order. And so I had a niche project management role and it was kind of like the whole Jerry Maguire, show me the money, you know, where Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: Friday afternoons at five o'clock, you were beating the clock. between your broker resigning and you transitioning over their license so that they could come over and do their work. And Perry: But Catherine Webb: so that's how I started out. And I've just moved around in the financial industry and really gained and experienced and honed in on my learning. Perry: Yeah, that's great. Now you live in Charlotte, North Carolina these days. is Catherine Webb: Yes. Perry: is that a transplanted home for you or are you a a North Carolina native? Catherine Webb: No, like most of us here in North Carolina, this is not where Kathy Bryan: Yeah. Catherine Webb: came from. so I was actually born and raised in a village. yes, they still have villages. Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: the village of Porchester in New York, it's really nestled Perry: Akay. Catherine Webb: between Connecticut and Rye and Greenwich. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: So Westchester County. and then the family moved to Richmond. Perry: Yeah? Okay. Catherine Webb: And then I got a call one day from a recruiter who told me about a job here in Charlotte. And Perry: I don't know. Catherine Webb: I thought, didn't she see I live in Richmond? But my mother Bryan: Yeah. Catherine Webb: suggested that I go ahead and take the leap of faith. And so I did, and here I am, and things have been going so well since I I I did that. So yeah, pretty happy with the Perry: It's a lovely place, right? A lot of folks, a lot of transplants as you point out. It's Catherine Webb: Lot of culture, a lot of things to do, you're never bored. Perry: Never bored. Never bored. Okay. So, okay. So now let's let's like you gave us good some good bits already about some of your your background talking about how you got into the space. But tell us a little bit about what you've done as you've taken yourself, you know, from those nonprofit and executment days all the way up to what you're doing today. Tell us a little bit about some of your accomplishments. We want to hear about about the big things that you've done. 'Cause it's some pretty cool stuff for folks that are That are listening or watching to know. Catherine Webb: Yes. So when I started my career in project management, I started it, you know, at an advisory firm and I actually helped them stand up their independent brokerage channel. And so that's where brokers just clear through a major financial institution and they actually own their own business. so that's where all the fun was had with, you know, getting the restraining orders and transferring the license and all that. Perry: yeah. Catherine Webb: And so that was a very niche market to help that broker transition his license, bring over his book of business, get his clients set up on new platforms. And then because the financial institution that I worked with was doing a lot of mergers, I kind of became the merger queen, right? So Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: how do we merge these two companies together? How do we create synergies and efficiencies across the lines of business? How do we do retention not only with our customers but with our brokers as well? so I kind of became known as the merger queen. Well, there became a time during those mergers where we were the ones. That was consumed. And so Perry: Uh-huh. Catherine Webb: the company you know, moved out of state. And at Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: the time it wasn't a good decision for me to do that. So I stayed and took my package and took Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: my merging skills, if that's a word, over to the next financial institution. and there it was, you know, I've pretty much stayed in the top five. and so I helped them through a lot of the mergers that they had. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: Developing the new PMOs and the new structures Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: within the combined org. And then I moved to Charlotte, came Perry: Uh-huh. Catherine Webb: over here, and that is where the fun happened. So I kind of moved away from mergers, moved Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: into more traditional program management, Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: started my journey down digital transformation. Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: So I helped the institution bring in their first AI and That was a multi-year, multi-million dollar global project. Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: so that definitely sharpened my skills. How do you do all this? How do you do it with that much money? How Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: do you do it across that many different time zones? And Perry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. Catherine Webb: how do you keep everything running smoothly while all eyes are on you? Because this is the pilot. This is the first time we're doing this. So that was very interesting. and so I did well in that space. And then COVID hit. And so Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: then I was asked to be kind of on a sort of a SWAT team for our executives and kind of help them with things that were top of mind. and so along with that became or came employee benefits. and so I had that beautiful state that had all the issues. Bryan: Mm. Perry: Uh-huh. Catherine Webb: That was in the news all the time. And I had to solve for that. And so there were things times when there were extraordinary ass of me. and so Perry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine Webb: one thing was launching almost three hundred and fifty thousand new debit cards with the chip enabled Bryan: No Perry: Wow. Catherine Webb: in twenty weeks. In twenty weeks. So that was like a Herculean effort. And with that, we were also trying to change a lot of our fraud rules that applied Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: and remediating instances maybe where you know the best job had not been done previously and we needed to come in and clean up some areas. So that was fun and exciting. Definitely kept the pressure on. Perry: Yeah. Bryan: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: But I learned a lot. I learned a lot. I learned what not to do and what you know what was done well. Perry: This is like so it's it's funny is as you you talk about this and gosh, like like that's just a massive project. But these are the a lot of the work that you've done are are complex projects, right? So you've got like decades of experience doing this stuff. I know that sometimes like you know, things don't go as planned or perfectly, right? And sometimes that comes down to being an issue with the strategy that was lined out, or or maybe even with the exact way that. missions planned. but other times the problem lies elsewhere, right? any scenarios you can think of where you can talk about things that you've learned along the way where it's it's a you're working on a complex project and you go in you're like it's not the strategy, it's not the plan, the problem lies someplace else. Catherine Webb: Yeah, and so honestly, yes. I've seen that more than once, right? So Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: there are many instances where the strategy can be perfectly sound and Perry: Isn't it? Catherine Webb: people can be working really, really hard, but the execution model underneath it isn't strong enough to carry the strategy, right? decisions can be taken too long, priorities can be There can be dependencies that aren't visible to the team, to the executives. And then you have instances where all of that compiled together gives leaders information too late. And so now we've lessened their ability and their options for decisions that they could have made. So in those situations, the problem isn't the strategy, the problem is that. The organization isn't built in a clear way to turn Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: that strategy into coordinated, which is important, right? Bryan: Winter. Catherine Webb: Coordinated decisions and actions. And this is where you would see a strong PMO or governance function come in Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: and truly make the difference, right? When you have a PMO, the value isn't producing more reports. The value is helping the organization and executives see what's coming at them and Perry: Is it? Catherine Webb: have enough time to act and really impact the up. Perry: Yeah. Y you know, it's it's Bryan, Catherine's got all this like tremendous experience. So you know, sometimes we kinda gotta get into the you know, what is it, is it a people issue or not? Bryan: Yeah. I mean it's really important. Like I mean I've I've heard you say that companies don't really lack people, smart people or good ideas a lot of the times. It's it's something else, like kind of in entirely. And I'm curious, in your opinion, like if it's not people, it's not necessarily ideas. What do you feel like companies are are struggling with the most? Catherine Webb: Hmm. So I would say that it isn't mostly those factors. so most organizations are short on clarity and capacity, not idea and people. And you say, well, people and capacity, right? You know, what's the difference? so organizations can have limited funding, limited people, limited data, or simply limited executive attention. So the real problem is when those trade-offs are not made visible, everything becomes a priority. Multiple teams are depending on the same people or same person. And no one makes a decision about what is the true priority, what has to be action first. And that's what good governance should help you surface. It should help leaders see the collisions early and decide. What needs to move now, what weights, and what risks they're willing to accept. What's their risk tolerance level? Bryan: I mean that that kind of leads in too as well. I mean you mentioned you you got into AI kind of early in 2020 That's that was it was still pretty, you know, new for most people, I think at that point. So you got to see it from the beginning. And I think governance has been something that's like been something that you focused on and realized pretty early on is is important. But but governance is important, right? Like it but it does tend to slow stuff down. So when you walk into a company that believes that, like what do you usually do? Catherine Webb: so nobody really likes to PMO, right? and governance is usually mistaken for Bryan: But Catherine Webb: levels of approval. if you have a decision that needs to go to three or four forums and no one is quite sure who has the authority to make it, that is just simply bureaucracy, right? but good governance should take the shorter path. people should know what they can decide, what evidence they need to make their decision. And what has to be escalated. and everybody should know the clear path to that. routine work is gonna keep moving, right? Because it doesn't need all of those decisions. But executive attention should only be reserved for decisions that genuinely need it, like no crying wolf, no crying Bryan: Yeah. Catherine Webb: wolf, right? And to me, governance it doesn't add. To the process, it's about removing the uncertainty and creating that clarity for both you know, all the PMs and the program managers within the departments and the business leaders, but for the executives, right? So it's about uns removing uncertainty and creating clarity. Perry: You know, it's it's funny you bring up the clarity, like we always I think there's a lot of us that are are looking for a single pane of glass dashboard that's like basically got all the information I could possibly ever need in one spot. but you know, that can kind of give false confidence from time to time, especially for executives who may not be, you know, down in the weeds enough to know exactly what's going on. in your like in your experience, where's the truth get lost? Between the person who actually knows what's going on, right, and what the executive or the person who's reading that dashboard is l is looking at. Catherine Webb: It gets lost in the layers. so executive reporting is very different from program level reporting, which is very different from your project level reporting. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: the person closest to the issue may know that a decision is overdue or necessary. They can see that a dependency is slipping or that the team isn't actually ready to take on that new task. Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: But by the time that information flows through Several reporting layers and several conversations. something that maybe was a yellow status can turn back into a green status, and you know, as those bullet points get wordsmith, the dashboard Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: can still be technically accurate Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: and the truth may still be listening missing from the leaders. so you want an executive view to show what needs decisioning. You want to know who owns it, what are the implications if nothing changes, and then when is that decision due? Like when do they need to make a decision? a dashboard is valuable when it helps the leader impact what's happening Perry: Yeah, yeah. Catherine Webb: next. And you Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: know, with every program, I've created a different type of dashboard depending on Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: what that leadership team really needs. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: But the thing about it is that leaders, they want to be your share leaders, but they Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: more than anything, they want to be your helpers. They want to help you move Perry: That's true. Catherine Webb: those impediments. They want to keep the work flowing because that's the success, right? Keeping it flowing and getting it right. And they want to understand where's the business benefit? Like where's my money going? And so I always Perry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Catherine Webb: try to cover those in three senses. Perry: That's that's a great approach to doing it. It's so much nicer to have it to where it's it's streamlined. You know, it's it's interesting because you know, there's so many places where we can get lost in the weeds, right? And and it can be the complexity Catherine Webb: Yeah, huh? Perry: of the information that's being provided. there's other times where it's it's really about, you know, knowing, you know, who like the subject matter expert is that needs to make a decision or the particular decision owner, right, is. If you ask 10 people inside of a transformation project, who owns a particular decision, like first question is like for you based on experience, do you find that it's it's like just different answers all over the place? Like how many different answers am I going to get? And then and then a second follow-up part is like, where should these, you know, decisions made be recorded and written down? Because it's, you know, it it's not just the in the moment of the project, right? But afterwards being able to look back and see what was done. So yeah, like how many answers do you think you get from folks when you ask who owns the decision? And then, you know, where do you record the information for posterity? Catherine Webb: Yeah, so Perry I don't know how to answer this question because that never happens in any PMO that I've ever ran. Bryan: That's great. Perry: You're Catherine Webb: Mine Perry: that good. You're that good. Catherine Webb: are always smooth flowing, smooth flowing. no, really, you would probably get about 10 different answers. and that's Perry: my gosh. Okay. Bryan: Yeah. Catherine Webb: usually because the the owner in the organization hasn't defined the authority behind the role, right? And so someone can be accountable for an outcome, but they may still need to go back to their team and get approval from their manager before they can, you know, come in and and really sign off on. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: And so that's where the work begins to stall, right? That's where you start seeing because now he's got to wait for his manager to have time to meet with him. His manager wants to think it through. The manager has to go to somebody else. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: Decision rights need to be built into the governance model and connected to the actual workflow. Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: And that includes things like who recommends it, who decides, who's got to be consulted. Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: What triggers an escalation and even to the point of who can say stop the work? if everyone is involved, but no one has clear ownership or clear authority, excuse me, that's not ownership. So you gotta make sure that your authority is clear. Perry: It's it's so important. There's like there's and and it doesn't always sit right at the executive level. Sometimes the folks that we're talking about that are making those decisions are people that, you know, they they hold significant authority in the business, but you know, they may not have a title that matches up to it exactly. there's another thing that kind of comes up, which is that in these longer projects that are two or three years, right? You see people changing in roles coming and going. getting promoted, moving to a different division. I mean, you talked about all the MA work that you've done. You could have, you know, a person in year one that's making decisions goes away. One of the things that we've been really fascinated with talking with people about lately is understanding like, what do you do when, you know, that that person that has made the decision moves on, right? And you no longer have the capability to tap directly into their head. So I don't know, any advice that you've got for folks on on that side of of things? Catherine Webb: Traditional project management, right? What's the Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: first one of the first things we learn is lessons learned. and record Perry: Lessons. Yeah. Catherine Webb: keeping, right? Everybody thinks in the world of agile you don't need to keep records, but you do. And Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: so when you don't have that, the organization keeps the final decision, but then they lose the sight of the why, right? So you may have a decision register, you know, that says this is the decision that we made, but where's the high behind the why behind that? Where's the reasoning that goes along with it? Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: and when you document that, that helps the next the new team, right? So the new team can see the decision, they can see what was considered, what evidence was used, they can understand the assumptions that were made, and then Perry: Isn't it? Catherine Webb: what conditions could change the the original decision, right? and so when you document it, it helps people to not have to go back. And have that same old debate, right? Excuse me. they can keep it flowing by reviewing the information that you had Perry: No. Catherine Webb: with all of the knowledge base and the reasonings why and stuff. and with a multi-year program, the decision record must, it has to preserve the why and not just the outcome. This is what helps the next leader have enough context to move forward without them going and starting the whole debate all over again. Perry: I I just I love how, you know, taking PMO principles and applying them to how information is managed inside of a business. It's it's like it's a passion and focus for us. but we also end up dealing with a lot of stuff that goes onto onto the Catherine Webb: We're losing it in the agile world though. Perry: you Bryan: Mm. Perry: know, it's it's tough, right? Because because there's so many opportunities, I think, for a lot of folks to be able to see moving at speed. And at the same time, right, it's it's you know, some of those old, you know, waterfall approaches were great for record keeping, right? And they created a lot of things that felt bureaucratic to people. but Bryan, I know you're gonna ask you wanted to ask Kathy some questions about regulatory and risk programs, right? Because a lot of that stuff ends up driving a lot of the needs to have the information at a later date. So go go for it, Bryan. Find out the answers. Bryan: Yeah, it's a it's a huge Yeah, like Catherine so you've run those regulatory and risk programs and like is it almost what kind of insight do you feel like it gives you when someone asks you to evidence why a decision was maybe made two years ago and you don't yeah, you know, you don't necessarily have that or what is what does that expose about the company and how it keeps records? Catherine Webb: Mm-hmm. Well, it dispose it exposes really quickly whether the company has a real decision record or a collection of emails and notes and presentations Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: and someone who has to go back and reconstruct that. you know, when you're operating in a regulatory environment, and let's be honest that now in the world of AI, you know, AI, all the new regulations are coming down, right? They EU and China and everybody has their regulations that they're pushing through. So saying that someone understood the decision at the time just simply isn't enough. You need to be able to show clearly what was decided, who had the authority, what evidence was considered, what risk was accepted, and whether the required actions actually followed. you know, the regulators are getting really tough. They want to know who is in that room. You know, they can ask for resumes of the Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: leaders that, you know, decisioned on that. and if you take too long to rebuild that story, the Perry: Exactly. Catherine Webb: record keeping is just not supporting the governance. the evidence has to be created at the time that the decision is being made. not two years later when someone asked for it. you know, especially when you're in a highly regulated industry, you know, they're gonna wanna see point in time. They're gonna wanna see populations, you know, of when these things happened and how you came to the z decision that you came to. Bryan: So I asked Claude is not a that's not a fairly Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: Ha ha Well you can document it and you gotta document it. And the reasoning behind Bryan: This is it. This is it. Perry: Live for you right. I I'm pretty sure they have topics, yeah. Catherine Webb: But I don't think they will allow that though. Bryan: Okay. So where do you think the accountability actually does get dropped? Like do you think it's more of a the kind of a people problem or do you think sometimes it's like just people not being able to see the same picture? Catherine Webb: so I think it'll probably be the latter. It's it's generally not a people problem. it happens between the space and the functions. so the business, they own the outcomes, technology owns the system, risk and compliance, they establish your boundaries, and operations really happens in the workflow. So each group can be doing their part, but Where is it connected? and whose responsibles, whose responsibilities are in the decision model. and so that's really where the accountability gets dropped. You need to have that coordination. the answer is not to force one function to own everything, it's about the handoffs, it's about the decision rights, it's about that shared evidence. And the escalation points need to be visible across those boundaries. Bryan: Total sense. Perry: I I've got a question. I gotta understand so so I think I think for for all of those pieces, at the end of the day, like we get to the end of a project and we're thinking about where information's gotta go. so it seems to me that based on my experience, I think this has been yours as well, right? That the PMO can sometimes, you know, be seen as as the the dumping ground of of like The responsibility to to make sure all that information's recorded in the right places. you know, first am I am I just hallucinating this, you know, like Chat GPT or Claude might, or is that your experience as well? And then and then more importantly, like what do you do to make it happen differently? Because honestly, it it shouldn't be the PMO who's ultimately responsible. It's everybody's responsibility to help. manage information assets of the business, right? So Catherine Webb: Mm-hmm. Perry: give us the the wise sage advice that you've learned over years. Catherine Webb: Yeah. So what you're talking about is not allowing your PMO to turn into a filing function. and that's Perry: I use Catherine Webb: exactly what will happen when all your PMO does is collect statuses and produce reports that don't impact a decision. PMOs, we don't make widgets. We we don't produce that tangible asset for the company, right? Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: So we always have to be showing that we are improving execution, right? Because Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: if you don't, leaders are going to see you as simply overhead. So a good PMO connects the dots across the work. It anticipates what's coming. It identifies the decisions and dependencies that are going to collide. And it gets the right information to the right people early enough to take action. when I leave governance across lines of business, the value was not the number of meetings and reports that we produced. It was about the earlier decisions, fewer surprises, clearer readiness, and stronger controls. Perry: That sounds pretty good to me. Catherine Webb: Mm-hmm. Perry: let's talk a little bit Bryan: Thank you, Nick. Perry: about AI. I'm I'm kinda okay, so man, AI comes up just all the time these days for us. And and one of the big things is really thinking about what we oftentimes end up terming ROI. But ROI when you measure it's really about outcomes, right? Because there's no for most businesses, they're not actually making money. Off of deploying AI tools, right? They're supposed to be finding more efficiencies or they're more effective at something. It's the outcome, right? But who owns the AI outcome? Right. And then and more importantly, you know, we we also know that that you know AI is only as good as the information that it's able to source from. So who owns the input side? And what happens when a company is trying to scale that? process of of deploying AI throughout the organization, right? Thinking about it both from a information input standpoint and then what's actually a good way to have a measurement of outcomes that really mean ROI has been delivered to the business. Catherine Webb: Right. and so I believe that, you know, AI it doesn't fix a process, it simply automates it, right? So Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: if a workflow is unclear, the decision rules live in somebody's head, or exceptions are handled differently by each team, or data boundaries are not understood, AI is gonna quickly scale that confusion for you. so before leaders automate, they need to understand how the work actually happens, what decisions are appropriate for AI, what the system should be allowed to do, and where Perry: Mm. Catherine Webb: we need to bring in human in the loop, right? Where a human needs to come in and intervene. AI can magnify a strong operating model, but it can also magnify a weak one. Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: So speed without that clarity can create a much larger control problem. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: And I also think it's about education, right? And so executives also have to be educated on AI. a lot of folks just think that you hire an AI AI agent or build it out, and then boom, in 20 minutes you're off to the races and you're running, which is simply not true. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: the point that you had about data is so very true. You need to give that AI agent or that AI time to be trained, time to learn Perry: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: before it starts decisioning for you. And you really have to watch it. You know, shadow AI and hallucinations, like you said earlier, are a true thing. Perry: They are. Okay, I've got one last on the AI side for you. So sometimes, right, somebody's gotta hit that that stop button on some of these, right? It could be shadow AI or it could be, you know, just just getting into tooling that doesn't match up with the organization's responsibilities or regulatory requirements. Who should have the capability to hit that stop button on an AI project? and how and more importantly, you know. How does that person know when that time is that they need to do that? Catherine Webb: So the authority should be named before that initiative launches. depending Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: on the issue, it can sit with the business executive who owns the outcome. Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: it can be a risk or compliance leader, it can be technology. But what matters is is that everyone who has the authority knows it. Like that person should know it and understand it. And Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: they should also understand, and you should have written what. Conditions trigger it? Like what are your thresholds? I would pause Perry: Okay. Catherine Webb: if the organization cannot explain what the system's doing, who can authorize the action, whether it's operating within its boundaries or how the material outcome occurred. Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: Things that should come to your attention are rising exceptions, unreliable data, unexplained Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: performance changes, control failure. missing human intervention, those are also clear signals for you. and then reminding ourselves that pausing is not a failure. It means that the governance is doing what it's designed to do. So, you know, you have to think of it when you think of it in the financial world, that if you see that agent decision wrong on one account. Do you just say, that was an anomaly? Or do you just let it happen to a thousand accounts and you say, now we have a trend. Now we have an issue. Now we have a problem we need to solve. So it's looking at the little things first and actioning on those as well. And Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: having those threat thresholds clearly defined and written down. Perry: Alright, well I'm gonna leave the last opportunity to ask you a question to Bryan and so go for Catherine Webb: Yeah. Bryan: Yeah, let's let's let's close it out. So we have lot of people listening, a lot of them are leaders, and say they decided to change one thing on Monday after the weekend. What's the highest leverage one? And like what do you think they would see change first? Catherine Webb: so I would say pick one important workflow and make those decision rights visible. and with that you would want to document who recommends it, who decides, who can stop the work, and what evidence is required and what triggers that escalation. then you take that and compare it to what reporting really What reporting your leadership already receives. So what are you already showing them? and generally the first thing that you're gonna see is that where your ownership is unclear and where your dashboard is not showing the real decision. you could also discover places where AI or automation is acting without the agreed boundary. Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: So my suggestion would be to do it with one workflow, learn from it, and then scale that discipline up. that's a good place to start for me. Perry: Pretty cool. Okay. So we do have one last, last one for you, which is pretty much a you know, opportunity for you to share any thoughts you have. But before we get to that, because that's the way we always wrap up, I I want to know if people are wanting to reach you, right? And to engage you or just to ask you more questions, what's the best way for them to reach you? Where should they find Catherine Webb: Yes, Novagraceadvisory.com. So we do have that website. If you're looking for an assessment or want to reach out to myself, please do go out to our website, Perry: Yeah, Catherine's got an incredible amount of experience folks, especially in the financial services space, but I'd say just across anything that requires PMO experience, you know, great, great person to talk to. all right. So last one we always end every show with is is basically anything you think that folks that are listening or watching today should know or or should hear from you about. So this one's a a wild card. So any anything you want to share. Catherine Webb: The only thing I would share is that sometimes, you know, with all of the technology, digital transformation, AI that's going on in the world, all of the new exciting things, we sometimes forget about our foundation. a house is built on a certain foundation for a reason, right? And sometimes Perry: Yeah. Catherine Webb: if the wheel isn't broke, you don't have to fix it. Perry: Mm-hmm. Catherine Webb: so always remembering your foundation and making sure that's good and solid and building off. Perry: That's fantastic advice. Bryan: Absolutely. Perry: Catherine thank you for joining us today. Thanks for being on ground control. It's been fantastic to have you. And I hope everybody watching or listening today's enjoyed it as much as Bryan and I have.